Chamberlain has come up again....

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Originally Posted by Loins Of London But are you defending him because of his unpopularity or because you think he was a good politician? Personally, I think it's because he was a conservative who never actually called himself a Conservative.

Well, mostly because I think he was a great politician and people mostly never actually look at what he did and the reasoning behind it. They just go "Appeasement = bad" and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Loins Of London And he was a Liberal Unionist, not a Tory eh So what do you make of his dad then?

Important figure in parliament history, one of the Education reform pioneers of the 1908-11 social reforms if i recall correct, need to read up on him more though.

Sounds from the merest glimpse at his Wiki page (as a refresher, not a proper read up, I stress) that he was sort of a Victorian/Edwardian Roy Jenkins, complete with the obligatory faux pas.

Austin Chamberlain was also suitably legendary. The Locarno Pact being a fundamentally part of Higher History!

All three were political giants.

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Originally Posted by Sir Anthony Eden Chamberlain worked tirelessly for a noble cause, one that ultimately failed and although he couldn't see it, was doomed to failure from the beginning. Hitler would have turned back in 1936 if France and Britain had sent a military force into the Rhineland, underfunding the forces was a terrible mistake as Chancellor and Prime Minister, not allowing Churchill into government was foolish, trusting Hitler a fatal mistake. I believe he deserves his reputation, but I agree there is more to the man than his premiership and more to appeasement than just giving in.

Oh, that moment in 36 is definetly a turning point, though I blame it more on the French than the Brits. They had a ready army to use to deter the remilitirisation, and what did they do? Stay at home and moan about it. Neville seemed to think the French would do something about it after big talking harsh measures since 1918, and then in their big chance to put their money where their mouth was, they failed absymally. And the Rhineland was Baldwin's watch. I recall my History teacher tearing into him for not doing anything.

Chamberlain said after this, "The French cannot keep a secret for half an hour or a government for half a year", suggesting that he wasn't best pleased with them.

I disagree however, that he trusted Hitler.

Certainly, the evidence is that old Neville saw through Hitler from very early on, if his letters are anything to go by. From his letters and actions, it seems that he knew war was coming, and that if it had to happen it had to be put off as long as possible so that the British army could be prepared. Indeed, this was foreshadowed by his frustrated Munich diary entry, which states "Hitler is mistaking our understanding and kindness for weakness!"

Also look at Munich. Chamberlain knew he had cancer at this point. His doctors advised him not to travel by plane, it wouldn't be good for his nerves or help. Hitler didn't help matters, trying to have the meeting at as faraway a point as possible. Chamberlain took the trip anyway because he felt the British public and indeed the world needed to see that the Brits were determined to prevent a war and if any happened, it wasn't there fault. (This also helped the British public, who people forget were abotu 80% against a war in 1938!)

As for Churchill, well, he was doing his best hawkish outlook at the time. He and Chamberlain worked well from 1939 onwards. But he was not the man for the appeasement era. (Which is a stupid name anyway)

It comes across more that Chamberlain knew exactly what the outcome would be, and possibly even what his legacy could end up as a result, but forged ahead regardless for the greater good. Admirable.

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Originally Posted by Sir Anthony Eden Great Britain signed the Treaty and was irresponsible in not enforcing it on many levels. Baldwin was foolish in his dealings abroad and Chamberlain had significant influence on foreign and military policy as Chancellor so I tend to blame them both. I admire Chamberlain's hard work and hopes for peace but I believe his mismanagement led to the greatest trauma this country has ever seen and that his reputation as a guilty man is well deserved.

And I still blame the French.

See, we are looking at the same evidence and are almost in agreement. Its just that our conclusions are wildly different. I can see where your coming from in your view, though I strongly disagree that Chamberlain was the guilty man (if anyone, it was Halifax).

And the greatest trauma this country ever saw was the 14th Century Black Plague. We lost half the population of Britain in a decade. Only World War I comes even close.

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Originally Posted by Sir Anthony Eden I can never argue that point, you are of course quite right to blame the French, for anything. And you are right about the plague in terms of trauma, a nice point.

I was just reading about Eyam the other night, so the plague was fresh in my mind.

Some final quotes from Chamberlain

On the French : "they can't keep a secret for a half hour or a government for a half year." (a repeat, but I do like it)

And possibly one of the greatest putdowns in history delivered to Sir Archibald Spencer who was bemoaning the Anschluss and Britain's lack of intervention in it. Sir Spencer being against British rearmament, you see.

SPENCER (he did like his grandiose rambles)
"During these recent crises in the affairs of the world, many of us have begged the Government to make a stand, and stop the retreat of the Democracies against the advance of the Dictatorships, but Honorable Members have shouted, "You want war! You must be careful!"...So we see the Democracies still on the retreat before the Dictatorships. We see, through the hail of bombs, and the rumbling of tanks, the tide of anarchy and confusion rising and engulfing civilisation."

(the usual grunts of agreement in the Commons)

CHAMBERLAIN
"The hard fact is that nothing could have arrested what actually happened unless this country AND other countries were prepared to use force!"

Pawnage complete.